timeline for forms in android

Discuss plans for a future version of HanDBase for the Google Android platform

Re: timeline for forms in android

Postby willieallen » Tue Feb 07, 2012 1:28 am

Brian_Houghton wrote:Hi,

Thanks for posting. Forms are not supported by HanDBase for Android at this time. They can neither be designed on-board nor can then be used when designed on the desktop.



THEN SAY IN THE DESCRIPTION IT DOES NOT SUPPORT FORMS!!! STOP MIS-LEADING PEOPLE!!!
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Re: timeline for forms in android

Postby edwin2011 » Tue Feb 07, 2012 2:53 am

don"t shout, calm down!
*** edwin ***
Samsung S4 / Palm Treo
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Re: timeline for forms in android

Postby curtterp » Tue Feb 07, 2012 6:10 am

It doesn't say in the description that Android supports forms either....

I know that your frustrated with no forms support on Android, but it is also the youngest flavor of HanDBase out there. Forms is a huge undertaking with many months of development time involved, and since Dave has only himself to program right now, he doesn't have enough hours in the day to do everything he would like to do.
Have a good day

Curt
I am not a DDHSoftware employee, just a long time HanDBase user.... from Palm to Windows Mobile to Android, to iOS. Thanks to DDH, the database files transferred to each platform without a problem.
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Re: timeline for forms in android

Postby dhaupert » Tue Feb 07, 2012 8:11 am

willieallen wrote:
THEN SAY IN THE DESCRIPTION IT DOES NOT SUPPORT FORMS!!! STOP MIS-LEADING PEOPLE!!!


Sorry you're disappointed/feel mislead. We don't advertise forms in any version unless it has forms support. In fact, most versions of HanDBase don't have forms support. I am guessing you used a version that did and thus felt that it was across the board- but that's not the case. Again, sorry for the confusion, but I'm not going to list every feature a program doesn't have, but rather focus on what it does have and people can make their decision based on that!
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Re: timeline for forms in android

Postby Avi » Thu Feb 23, 2012 3:33 pm

I would be interested in your thoughts on this article:

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2400636,00.asp

-avi


dhaupert wrote:Hi there,

Thanks for your post. At this point they are not included in any development timeline here at DDH. This is because I don't yet have firm plans to develop forms for Android. It's obviously the feature that existing users most want in Android- the problem is that there aren't yet enough Android HanDBase users to warrant a half of year of development time to implement this feature. While other features may be less requested, they are something I can develop in days or even weeks, not half a year.

I know it's hard to fathom that the top selling platform doesn't have enough HanDBase users to justify this work. Let me provide a 'fictionalized' example:

Imagine you were a developer working a full time job at a company and wanting to earn some extra cash to pay for your upcoming wedding. You design a program for Platform A that you hope will earn you some extra cash and quickly find that this program is successful. So successful, you're able to quit your day job and work on it full time.

So now you have 40+ hours of week to work on projects. You want to pick the projects that will be the most successful, that would earn the most revenue so you can pay your bills, buy a house, and justify all your work and time spent away from your new family.

You now have a choice- add features to Platform A and hope to grow the user base more, develop add-on features for Platform A that you can charge additional for to existing customers, or develop for Platform B and find a whole new base of customers.

You choose the first option- adding more features, which causes the user base to swell and suddenly you're making enough money to pay your bills and then some. You hire additional staff and grow your company. You then have enough to concentrate on Platforms A, B, C, and D, as well as adding features to Platform A, and creating add-ons that you can sell to users on all platforms. Things are going well, each platform is bringing in income though programs for Platform A are still far outselling B, C, and D. This despite the fact that Platform B, C, and D devices themselves are outselling Platform A by a large margin at this point. Why is that, you wonder? If there are more platform B, C ,and D devices out there, why aren't my sales reflecting this? You being to wonder if it's the lack of features in your Platform B, C, and D versions, and so you begin to add the same feature-set that Platform A version had. That doesn't seem to help, and now you just spent a great amount of time on a platform that was not generating the amount of income to even cover the cost of development. You realize slowly that income from the program for Platform A, though a fading platform, has actually been paying for the development of Platform B, C, and D's features.

That's not a healthy economy for your business, as you learn when Platform A fades from existence. Platform B, C, and D are now the active platforms du jour and your main source of income is slowly fading away since B, C, and D never lived up to the expectations you had. Over time, you have to shrink your company to be able to continue to make your bills. You downsize your home, cars, and life style due to your shrinking income. Eventually you're down to just you and a few part time employees and are making a fraction of the income and therefore salary you had just years before.

Enter Platform E. This platform, while very different than it's predecessors in many ways, turns out to be more successful for you than B, C, or D ever were, and quickly puts them to rest in the market. You develop for Platform E and since you see success on this platform, you add more features to it as you did in the early days of Platform A. It begins to be the majority source of your income and while you don't make enough to grow the business back to prior depths, you are able to see the sales curve grow for the first time in many years.

Now comes Platform F. This platform, like B, C and D before it grows rapidly in terms of number of users using those devices, and so you see potential to add your program to Platform F. This time, you're more careful not to sacrifice your existing business for a new potential platform- you learned from the mistakes of the past. So you develop a Platform F program and decide to let the sales of Platform F fund it's own development, that is, if the program is successful on platform F, you'll spend much more time adding features and add-ons. If not, focus on Platform E which does seem to justify further features and growth.

You quickly find that Platform F, while the most popular platform of all, does not have the userbase for your product that Platform E, let alone Platform A had. You wish things were different as there is so much potential there, but you are much more cautious about putting months of time developing for platform F based on it's current sajles level for you.
Thus you focus mainly on Platform E, the one that pays your bills while trying to provide enough attention to Platform F to keep it useful and effective so that if Platform F does begin to show potential, you'll know it and can then justify spending additional time on Platform F.

---

I use the term fictionalized above only because there are no such platforms out there. Those of you who have followed DDH from the early days can probably fill in the blanks about which companies are being referred to! But this is why I'm very cautious about adding features to Android. I have made early mistakes running this business that nearly cost me the entire business, and I am much more careful and judicious about upcoming platforms than I ever was before. I know that a popular selling mobile platform does not equate to success for HanDBase. The types of users that buy HanDBase don't always go with the top selling mobile platform. That said, when a platform shows potential I make a calculated risk to develop for it and based on the outcome of that risk, I put more or less time and effort into it as it further develops.

So what does that all have to do with forms on Android? It means that I am open to the idea of forms on android, but at this point, I am not seeing the revenue from sales of the program to pay for the development of the forms feature. And until I do begin to see that growth, I won't begin work of forms for Android. In the interim, I have plans to add a bunch to the Android version over this summer, some other popular requested features that require less development time, and hope that this will help add some much needed momentum to the project for me. Then we'll see where it goes from there. Hope this insight is helpful and interesting to you!
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Re: timeline for forms in android

Postby kronhead » Thu Feb 23, 2012 5:51 pm

Avi wrote:I would be interested in your thoughts on this article:

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2400636,00.asp

-avi

I know you weren't asking me :) but I can think of 2 reasons this might happen:
- there are a lot of really trivial apps on the iphone market - lots of developers trying to make it big with a cheap, entertaining app. And iphone users will pay $.99 or $1.99 for anything even mildly entertaining.
- Many Android users don't want to pay for apps - "everything should be free" - so developers know they have a smaller market, and have to price things a little bit higher.

Dan
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Re: timeline for forms in android

Postby dhaupert » Fri Feb 24, 2012 10:05 am

Avi wrote:I would be interested in your thoughts on this article:

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2400636,00.asp

-avi


Interesting article. I wonder if that's a valid comparison though- shouldn't we be looking at the same app's price on both platforms? That would be a valid marker of whether Android apps are truly pricier or not. The reason I don't feel it's a valid comparison is that the top list of the iPhone market is based on sales volume, not top grossing. In other words, if I have a 99 cent app and I sell 100,000 copies, vs a 9.99 app that sells 20,000 copies, the 9.99 app won't even make it into the top list on the iPhone, since it's number of copies sold. They specifically have a top grossing section for this very reason- and there you'll see the productivity apps like QuickOffice, Pages, etc all costing more. The Android Market doesn't say how the top apps are determined, does it? I thought it was like all Google rankings in that the algorithm is kept hidden so people can't change the system.

Additionally, the majority of revenue made on the App Store comes from in-app purchases today, so apps will be priced lower, and in-app purchases, will unlock the premium features. This is taken into account in the top grossing list, but not the top sales list, though in both, the app price will be shown, and not the full price the user actually paid.

Regardless, it's interesting to see some higher price apps in the Android market!


there are many more games that are priced at 99 cents on the App Store that make it to the top of the list. The productivity apps used to
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Re: timeline for forms in android

Postby macs55 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 11:28 am

It is understandable after all business is business.
My question is, If you don't have a timeline to develop forms for android "yet", Why don't you fix what isn't working right in the actual version 4? Let's say "Edit View" on the device. Why should I have to use my desktop every time I need to add or edit a view to my db's? On all the other versions it works great. I never had to reset my Palm when I used this option, but with the android version... sorry but, I'm more than desapointed. At list, if you desided to market your product for android, make it as good as all your other products. Why are you going to fall into a category you don't deserve to be?
Yours truly
Marco Campodonico
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Re: timeline for forms in android

Postby BradW76 » Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:06 am

Avi wrote:I would be interested in your thoughts on this article:

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2400636,00.asp


I think a lot of the problem is summarized in this line:
whopping $4.09 for those with an Android.


Apple disrupted the personal software market by setting people's expectation that $.99 was what they should expect to pay for months of someone's time creating well-designed, high-functioning, bug-free software. And something that costs less than some cups of coffee is called a "whopping" price. No wonder high-function productivity products with significant development time are languishing.
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Re: timeline for forms in android

Postby dhaupert » Tue Apr 24, 2012 8:34 am

BradW76 wrote:
Avi wrote:
I think a lot of the problem is summarized in this line:
whopping $4.09 for those with an Android.


Apple disrupted the personal software market by setting people's expectation that $.99 was what they should expect to pay for months of someone's time creating well-designed, high-functioning, bug-free software. And something that costs less than some cups of coffee is called a "whopping" price. No wonder high-function productivity products with significant development time are languishing.


I agree completely! I remember when the App Store was announced and Steve Jobs basically told developers to keep the prices under ten dollars. He didn't require it, but he did suggest it. To me it seemed a little self-serving as Apple had more to gain if they could convince developers to sell their apps for less and it has certainly played out that way. At that time our average sales price was 29.99 (the price for the Plus version) and so he was asking us to take a 20 dollar price cut per customer. They would then be able to boast about all these great, low-cost apps they offer their customers. In exchange for that, we'd get many more customers and they'd handle all the hard stuff like helping users install the program easily, maintaining updates. To be honest, some of that is true- the App Store does make a few of the things that were not easy, easier, like updates, installing to the device. And for some industries like games and casual apps, the flood of many customers indeed showed up. But what I've seen in this market for productivity software for business users primarily is around the same as before. In actuality we sell far fewer copies now than we did when Palm was king, and at 1/3 the price. So the key to the promise did not come for us. Perhaps 9.99 is still priced too high. Perhaps we'd have to sell for 99 cents to really bring on the flood of customers? Unlike casual apps, high function productivity software has a sizeable support cost- for every 100 customers of an app like ours, we're going to hear from maybe 10 or more of those customers with 'how can I' type of questions. And those answers can't come from an offshore call center, they require thoughtful responses from experienced users or designers of the app itself. If a game like Angry Birds had to deal with that level of support, surely they would have to charge more than 0.99 or free/ad-supported!!
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